Friday, May 14, 2010
Lincoln's decisions
After our discussion in class, your textbook readings, or further research, post three comments on the following prompt... Argue for/against: Abraham Lincoln's status as one of the greatest Presidents is undermined by his attacks on civil liberties and other borderline constitutional war policies.
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lincoln's place as one of the greatest presidents rarely touches on the fact that he bent the constitution. His "attacs on civil liberties" were used entierly for purposes of war and not on civilians. he did what had to be done in a time of civil war which instead of subtracting from his greatness as a president and actually adds to his legacy.
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ReplyDeleteAbraham Lincoln would have been one of the best if not the best president had he not violated the constitution. these broken laws take his great presidency and tarnishes it. had he kept habeas corpus he could have put the people who were in his way through a trial and keep them out of the war for a little while he did what he had to.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I myself do not pardon Lincoln’s bending of the constitution, I think—that for the most part—Lincoln’s image was not damaged too severely because he ultimately strengthened the Union. When it comes down to nation verses individual, it is more important that after Fort Sumter Lincoln took an active role, raising an army, borrowing money, and blockading the southern coast without the permission of Congress. However Lincoln was able to justify his policies because he was acting in the interest of the nation. While this clearly created controversy at the time, his borderline constitutional policies were overshadowed because the Union won the war. Had the South won, Lincoln would have—to this day—been criticized for screwing up the war efforts and also being unconstitutional.
ReplyDeleteThis can be related to our current efforts in the Middle East. After 9/11 the war was generally supported by Americans. However, as the effort was proved unsuccessful, former President George Bush was blamed and his status plummeted.
Likewise, during the Vietnam War support of the efforts diminished because the war had been dragging on. Then, with an unsuccessful army, the inhumane actions, like killing innocent babies, became apparent. However, luckily for Lincoln, his suspicious suspension of habeas corpus and the arrest of 30,000 people were covered because he ended up winning the war.
Because Lincoln was successful in preserving and strengthening America, his borderline unconstitutional policies were forgiven. After all, we’re taught to refer to Lincoln as Honest Abe.
i agree with carly, Lincoln shouldnt bend the constitution at all but his doing so did not ruin his reputation. i also agree with her link to the current war in the middle east and the vietnam war
ReplyDeleteLincoln did what was necessary in order to do what was best for the country. He did bend the Constitution, but for all the right reasons. At the time, Lincoln was feeling pressure from both the North and the South and was forced to make decisions. His removal of habeus corpus was necessary because he was not recieving help from Congress. Overall, Lincoln should still be considered one of America's best Presidents because he made strong decisions that were necessary at the time.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tyler's statement that Lincoln was feeling pressured from the entire nation and thus forced to make decisions. After reading her response, I did however think about Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus. I'm not sure whether he suspended habeas corpus because Congress wasn't in session. Rather, I think that was his idea and had little correlation to Congress' lack of help. (meaning he didn't suspend habeas corpus to rebel against Congress)
ReplyDeleteAbraham Lincoln's status as one of the greatest Presidents is not undermined because he had to do what was necessary for the country. At the time what he did was what he needed to do at that point of being so close to war. Congress was not back so he needed to make decsions for the country. He did bend the constitution but for all the right reason because he was being pressured by the North and South to make crucial decisions.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with that statement completely. Some of the questionable actions Lincoln took as president are actualy part of what contributed to his greatness. Rather than sitting back and playing by the rules (which would have gotten the country nowhere), Lincoln assertively took actions that he felt were necessary for the welfare of the union. For example, when Lincoln blockaded the southern coast, he did not have Congress's consent. However, given the dire state of the nation, it was necessary. When a country is in a state of emergency, traditional rules take a back seat to doing what must be done to repair the country. That being said, all of the "unconstitutional" actions taken by Lincoln during his presidency were responsible and effective, which is in fact what makes him a great leader.
ReplyDeleteI like Carly's comparison with the situation in the Middle East. It has a good point. If the civil war was a loss for the union, Lincoln would have been criticized a lot more than he is now. The fact that he won made the public respect him, but if he failed, then he would have been criticized for his questionable actions...It's funny how the public reacts to certain things, and how they respect anyone who makes them win and criticizes anyone who makes them lose, regardless of their methods.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ricky that Lincoln's "attacks on civil liberties" were for the purpose of war and not on civilians. Lincoln did not make all the decisions he made to attack citizens. He made those choices because the country was spliting in two.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ricky about the habeaus corpus issue. Suspending it was completely necessary, as its presence only hindered Lincoln in a situation in which the country couldn't afford to spend time on formalities. That's a perfect example of Lincoln's justified "bending" of the constitution.
ReplyDeleteAbraham Lincoln ended the slavery problem in the United States and successfully led the Union to victory during time of civil war. Although he illegally bent the constitution by making decesions without Congress and suspending habeaus corpus he took action to end a crisis. I think his actions were in the best interest of the country and should be considered a great leader for the fact that he sucessfully ended a civil war. They should not dwell on the constitutionality of what happened.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brittany in the fact that President Lincoln made decisions in the country's best interest. It was not his fault that Congress was not in session at the time. As President Lincoln was obligated to take charge of the country to abolish slavery.
ReplyDeleteI like Taylor's point that had Abraham Lincoln "played by the rules" the country would have gone nowhere. Had he waited for Congress to come back in session it is highly unlikely that the Union would have won the war. He should be considered one of the greatest Presidents of all time because he was able to make the right decision on his own without the help of Congress.
ReplyDeletelove how everyone wait 'till last minute...
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that we're debating this, because we held a mock trial for Lincoln in JSA a few weeks ago, where we ended up convicting him of war crimes. However, given the circumstances, I see his actions as completely permissible in the face of disunion. When Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, the majority of those arrested were soldiers, not civilians, and most were released after a few months. Also, raising an army and blockading the southern coast in the aftermath of Ft. Sumter was necessary, and waiting for Congress to be in session and decide what to do would have taken too much time. Had Lincoln not acted swiftly, he would have been criticized for being weak and allowing the Confederacy and early moral victory. Had Lincoln lost the war, he would be held in contempt for violating the constitution, put since he reunited the country, we overlook these transgressions.
I think it's interesting that Carly brought up Vietnam and the current war in Iraq and Afghanistan, suggesting that public opinion is with the president as long as we're ahead...there just might be something to that. (the sarcasm in my voice is lost through empty text)
ReplyDeleteI also like the unique stance Taylor took, going as far to say Lincoln's unconstitutional actions made him such a wonderful president, which is another interesting argument.
Now just something to spark you're imagination...why did Lincoln want to keep the south? Had the confederacy won, would they have been a successful nation (given that when we had the Article of Confederation that didn't work to well)? Would we be better off without those states now?
ReplyDeleteLincoln's "unconstitutional" actions during his presidency do not undermine his status as one of the greatest presidents of all time. Lincoln did what he had to do in order to repair the union and that meant bending the rules of the constitution. He was put into a precarious situation, with the country on the brink of civil war, and had to make critical decisions without the consent of congress who were on recess at the time. I believe his actions made him the wonderful, successful president he is remebered as because he was brave enough to take a risk and bend the rules; something he knew was neccessary in order to preserve the union.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Carly in the sense that Lincoln would have been criticized if the union had lost the war. I think Lincoln would not have been blamed for the loss but instead would have been appreciated by Americans seeing that he went above and beyond, doing everything in his power and even over stepping his power, to solve the crisis.
ReplyDeleteI like how Laura brought up the fact that when Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus he only really arrested soldiers, not civilians, and that most were released after a few months. This shows he wasn't being malicious but only proving a point to the rest of the country.
ReplyDeleteI think that we have definitely been brought up in awe of Lincoln’s presidency, though we were never taught in depth the lengths to which he went to preserve his idea of a union. I don’t think that what he did detracts from his merit as a president, it only sheds light upon the conflict and moral dilemmas a leader must face when governing a country.
ReplyDeleteI don’t believe that Lincoln did what he did (bend the constitution) for any personal gain or interest; he went to great lengths to keep the union cohesive. When we look back at the decisions he made during the war, we can now see that his actions were well thought out and were pivotal to the North winning the Civil War in the end.
Though Lincoln did act without the consent of Congress, I think it is necessary for a leader to be able to deal with decisions and problems under pressure and Lincoln did just that, saving time and possibly the war for the North.
The controversy surrounding Lincoln’s actions is warranted but completely unnecessary, because had he not dealt with the situations and problems as he did, we might be living in a very different country today.
In my opinion, Abe Lincoln's actions were completely excuseable, necessary and honourable. Obviously, his actions were in the best interests of the nation, congress was useless and the army was crap. Thus, he had no choice but to take matters into his own hands. Suspending Habeus Corpus was a good idea in my mind and was able to control rebel activity and quell potential riots and revolts. Any criminal acting against the government during a time of war for a rebel government should have no rights, especially since the only people arrested were enemy militants. Without Lincoln's actions, the army would not have been prepared for war and the South would not have been blockaded, giving the South temporary but valuable advantadges which would have drastically altered the outcome of the war. Basically, the US government was unable to deal with the situation at hand and Lincoln's actions were essential to total victory.
ReplyDeleteAbraham Lincoln was undoubtably one of the greatest presidents this nation has ever seen. Lincoln is credited with ending slavery, amongst several other notable accomplishments. Lincoln is also well known for slightly bending the rules of the constitution, a reality that he took a lot of greif for during and after his reign as president. Lincoln, bent the constitution by suspending Habeus Corpus without consent from Congress, and raising and army and waging war, also without Congressional consent. DEspite breaking the highest law in the land, Lincoln was renowned for always acting for the welfare of the nation.
ReplyDeleteI like how Joe brings up the fact that Congress was nonexistent at the time. Therefore Lincoln was left with no choice but to proceed without congressional consent.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Laura's point. If Lincoln had not acted so aggressively, he would have been criticized for doing nothing. I guess it is better to be criticized by opponents for actually acting, rather than being criticized by mostly all for not helping the nation. (Even if that meant harming some).
ReplyDeleteI also like how Taylor mentioned that plaing by the rules is not always effective.
ReplyDeleteLincoln’s status as one of the greatest presidents in history is severely undermined by his blatant disregard to the constitution and civil rights. Lincoln’s censorship of the press alone puts him alongside some of history’s infamous tyrants. Not only did he violate one of the major tenants of the Bill of Rights, but also, his extended suspension of habeas corpus left an additional 13,000 people in jail without a trial or charges. Lincoln’s “preservation of the Union” and other accomplishments pale in comparison to his refusal to follow the law of the land. What good is a preserved Union without rulers who will follow its laws? While Lincoln’s status is impressive, his means of achieving such a status undermine the basic tenants of Union he tried to protect. Despite the fact that Lincoln acted “in the nation’s best interest,” he still did not follow the proper procedures in waging war. As Carly said, this was forgiven, because of Lincoln’s success in defeating the South. However, Lincoln’s victory was not as easy as it should of been. With superior numbers, arms, and supplies, the war should have ended much sooner. While these were all quickly forgotten, because the public was wooed not only by Lincoln’s final victory, but his evocative rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Lincoln did go ahead and completely ignore the Constitution and employ various policies he did not have the power to do does make him one of our most undermined presidents. His actions throughout the rest of the Civil War as well as his nickname of "Honest Abe" makes him one of the most well known, but his reputation will forever be tarnished by his suspension of habeas corpus, as well as his creating an army. Granted, Lincoln had to act on a dime's notice and also had to control a situation without Congress in session, I do believe he could have waited a tad bit longer before going to extremes and making impulsive decisions that, frankly, I'm shocked he didn't get in more trouble for them after the cease of the war.
ReplyDeleteI like how Carly took note of our current efforts in the Middle East and compared them to the situation Lincoln had dealt with. However, the reason Lincoln was able to get away with all he did, was because of his tight grip on the newspapers. Conversely, in Vietnam and the Middle East, the presidency had little, if any control over the press. The same goes for WWII. Had the press been slanted in such a way that opposed the war, the public would have ridiculed Lincoln.
ReplyDeleteWe've been taught since our wee years that Abraham Lincoln was one of the best, if not the absolute best, presidents of the United States. Not only did he lead the Union forces into an epic, bloody war against the Confederacy, he brought them victory and then began to put the country back together before he was mercilessly killed by a coward. The idea has been drilled into our heads over the course of years, and has largely gone unquestioned until now. Because now we can understand that in order to even start the Union's war effort, he had to bend many of the fundamental rules that the Constitution established.
ReplyDeleteWhat maintains the respect I have for Lincoln, however, isn't that he recognized that he had to disregard certain rules for the sake of the country. It's actually a little baffling that a president would even consider doing such a thing, and these days it would be unheard of. And yet, not only did Lincoln recognize that he HAD to do so, he got away with it. So if you think about it, the fact that he was able to blatantly take away the rights of the citizens that he led but also still remain so constantly well-respected throughout history probably says something about his presidency. And it says that these very actions are what made him great in the first place.
Carly's connections with current events have great insight, but I'm sad that she doesn't see Lincoln in exactly the same light that I do.
ReplyDeleteAbraham Lincoln's status as a great president is based on his results, not his methods. This goes along with the philosophy that "the ends justify the means". He is recognized as being assertive and cunning, and his main achievement was uniting the country. The war showed how far he was willing to go achieve this. Also, Lincoln's actions, such as suspending habeas corpus, were primarily military moves, and no impact on civilians. In addition, the South wanted to be treated like a different country, so these constitutional policies did not really apply to them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Melinh's comment that the actions he took are what made him a great president because of the fact that he knew what needed to be done to preserve the union.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Joe's statement that Lincoln was forced to take matters into his own hands. He played a very essential role in the victory of the North and the unity of the country.
ReplyDeleteLincoln’s violations of the constitution did not, in any way, undermine his status as one of the greatest presidents. Because the state of the union was in a time of crisis, it was necessary for Lincoln to disregard some points of the Constitution. He did exert a great amount of executive authority, arguably too much, but he used that power to preserve the Union, as opposed to personal selfish reasons. In every case where he assumed extralegal powers over congress, such as when he drafted soldiers to fight for the union cause without congressional consent, he did so with a higher purpose in mind. Therefore, his role as president under the Constitution was unique and his actions were justified.
ReplyDeleteWhen Lincoln chose to violate certain aspects of the Constitution, he did so in the best interest of the entire nation over which he was presiding. His first and foremost concern was to maintain a single Union, so it seems that the efforts he made were in the name of our country. I think if the nation's founding fathers were present at the time, they would put the preservation of the nation as a whole above the suspension of habeas corpus and the development of a Union army. The Constitution was also violated by the Southern states in terms of treason and secession, so in my opinion, Lincoln fulfilled his role as President by making a few violations in order to maintain the United States of America.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tracy's comment that Lincoln was not furthering himself in terms of politics or personal gain by making these decisions. He chose in the best interest of America and in fact sacrificed his own reputation in order to follow the most effective course of action given the circumstances.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Andrew's way of looking at Lincoln's actions. It is completely true that most Americans today and in history have viewed Abraham Lincoln as the president who stopped the South from secession or who abolished slavery. These events only occurred as a result of his Constitutional violation, and if given the context, many of those Americans would maintain their positions on Lincoln.
ReplyDeleteIsha makes a valid point in her last comment. If Lincoln never violated the Constitution our country would be in a completely different place and we may not have all the rights that we are given now.
ReplyDeleteLincoln definately had his faults, such as Declaring martial law in Maryland, suspending the writ of habaes corpus in some areas, threatening voters to vote for his party, making decisions reserved for Congress, basically abolishing freedom of press, making legislation (exceeding his authority) that was both outside of federal power and only applied to a foreign country, creating paper money that led to 80% inflation, creating the draft,and advocated the taking of property without just compensation.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it all comes down to whether you believe the ends justify the means.
ReplyDeleteThe ends are indisputably favorable; considering, our country still exists today and has thrived as a superpower throughout the 20th century. Not to mention slavery has long since been abolished.
However, many would questions the means. Such as the executive powers questionably implemented during Lincoln's presidency.
Yet, let us keep in mind that the Supreme Court has a long history of allowing rights to be denied during times of war and trouble. So perhaps it is a bit extreme to draw such harsh lines during a time when congress wouldn't even show up.
I personally think Lincoln's ends did justify his means. This is perhaps because as a person living in the present, I wouldn't venture to disown the decisions that allow my existence in the America of today.
I agree with Brittany that the statement of one of America's best presidents should not be undermined because of his actions throughout the war. He did what was necessary in order to keep some kind of order in the country
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Isha and Brianna that if Lincoln had taken a different course of action and not violated those rights, our country could be much different than it is now. The rights we take for granted today, could have been completely different if Lincoln had not done what he thought was best.
ReplyDeleteAbraham Lincoln was regarded as one of the greatest Presidents in history. However, many fail to recognize or associate him with his skewed constitutional war policies and bending of the Constitution because he did it out of necessity. During a time of turmoil, anarchy, and war, he felt it was necessary to do what would be best for the future of the country as whole (for example, removing Habeas Corpus). This wise and thought out decisions are what led him to become the respected and honorable President he was.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ricky and Taylor about the issue regarding the suspension of Habeas Corpus. This was a time of anarchy and chaos and there was no time to spend such time on minute regulations and rules. Suspending it would help rid of minor issues, in comparison to the war, and allot more time to the bigger issues at hand.
ReplyDeleteI like how Isha mentioned the founding Fathers and what their opinion would have been had they been present at the time of war. I too, believe that they would have agreed with Lincoln’s decision as preserving the nation as a whole was much more important that whether or not Habeas Corpus was in effect.
ReplyDeleteLincoln did what was necessary in order to do what was best for the country. He did bend the Constitution, but for all the right reasons. At the time, Lincoln was feeling pressure from both the North and the South and was forced to make decisions. His removal of habeus corpus was necessary because he was not recieving help from Congress. In every case where he assumed extralegal powers over congress, such as when he drafted soldiers to fight for the union cause without congressional consent, he did so with a higher purpose in mind. Therefore, his role as president under the Constitution was unique and his actions were justified.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Helen's point that he is still a very well known and famous president and no one remembers these power struggles becuase historians recognize it as out of necessity and therefor it was justified and he made the right decision
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the statement. Although some of his actions were borderline on rule-breaking (suspending habeas corpus), he did his job in that he tried his absolute best in doing what was right for the country. Had he held back, he wouldn't have accomplished anything and he wouldn't be considered one of the best presidents today.
ReplyDeleteI like the way Alexis said it: He did bend the constitution, but it was for all the right reasons. He didn't do it for personal wealth or power. He did it for the good of the country as a whole, and that's what makes a good leader.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Chris: the ends justify the means. Lincoln did A LOT of things that would be deemed questionable and he did make some mistakes (printing money --> inflation) However, it was all worth it in the end and he knew that. He knew what he had to do for the good of the American citizens and he went for it.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with the statement. Abraham Lincoln was still seen as an honest, trusted president. He was reelected into office by popular vote, and would most likely have been elected again if he had not been assassinated.
ReplyDeleteLincoln only went against the Constitution by suspending habeas corpus because he couldn't afford to lose time at such a critical time in the Civil War. He only used this in military situations, not in private vengeance against groups he didn't like. For example, Lincoln could have targeted Copperheads but didn't because he saw that that was an unjust use of his power.
I agree with the comment Chris mentioned that Congress wasn't even in session at the time, so Lincoln was basically left to make decisions on his own. This doesn't make Lincoln a bad president, merely a man in a bad situation in need of immediate action.
ReplyDeleteI also like the point Andrew brought up that the South wanted to be treated as a different country. The Confederacy denied Lincoln's attempts to join the Union again, so Lincoln was justified in treating them as a separate enemy nation. Even at this, Lincoln still harmed as little civilians as possible in the war, trying to keep peace as best as he could.
ReplyDeleteI personally believe that abraham lincoln was one of the best presidents to ever serve, however i believe his suspension of habeas corpus was borderline unconstitutional. I believe that it was more over bending the rules rather than breaking them. However all the other positive notes that he had hit had produced more positive propaganda. He basically laid out the plan of reconstruction of the union and he had been possibly one of the smartest commander in chiefs during war time. he also held his cool during war and held back from completely destroying south and creating negative vibes between the two. with lincoln i feel as the pros outweigh the cons and that he will still be viewed as one of the best presidents ever to hold office
ReplyDeleteI also like how carla incorporated that he would have been elected a 3rd term if he was not assassinated. i believe the reconstruction period would have been done in a completely different way. for example lincoln would have controlled reconstruction, unlike congress with andrew johnson.
ReplyDeletei completely disagree with brianna's comment. i feel that the president that is the favorite of many people and possibly the best commander in chief a country has ever seen should never be reffered to as an infamous tyrant. his actions were innapropriate, yet justified. if he had not done what he had did the war would not have turned out the way it did and the south would have had more success against the north.
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